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 I have an idea...how about completely new begin?

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Revenant -Mar Sara-
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PostSubject: I have an idea...how about completely new begin?   08.02.13 10:20

Once again I think this over, Tacto noted while ago about new mod and new site, I get intrested. So I posted again all kind ideas and try to rise the moral of people like "Now it's happening, the most real and ultimate AvP game is possible! Let me help you and we will make it!"

What I realised again, was that it's all futile.

It's futile cause whatever you and I plan to have on that new mod, they will never happend or get like we want them to be, cause engine of AvP 2 ain't allowing it.


So how about totally new begin starting from own made engine?

If there is people who seek same as I - atmosphere of first AvP, Aliens movies (1 and 2, no further). Then I offer help. But I'm kind a dictator with this matter - if I offer ideas, I want see them done pretty much how I tell them to be. This can be hard to accept but again I can say that if there is someone who know how it's have to be, I know.

---

You might know me giving all kind ideas and some of them gets quite massive, maybe it's not best solution after all. If I can someday achieve them, then it's another story and another game. Now I feel something smaller have it's time.

Before I tell overal look what I have in mind, I tell that I'm looking first AvP game. It's atmosphere and how things were done in it, from lights to damages. If...IF it's possible to mod and you know how to mod it, then we could forget the new engine.

I'm gona be so hard as I can be about idea of this new game - it's gona be Colonnial Marines against Aliens, no other factions.
- Marine weapons consist only what is seen at Aliens movie - pulse rifle, flamethrower, machinegun and pistol for player using motion tracker. Special weapon is sentry turret.
- There is only one marine class and it can choose weapon it uses but there is no any other weapon for him to use, only marine using pistol is one who choose motion tracker as his "tool" and it cannot use any other weapon.
- Marine carrying sentry turret is completely defenceless otherwise, the turret weights way too much for him to carry anything else, so sentry turret is special weapon. Once in place, turret will wipe aliens like no tomorrow if they step it's firezone, just like in movie.
- Machinegun is machinegun. It tracks nothing and isn't called "smartgun". Point of machinegun is firing continuous support fire to support frontline troopers with rifles. Where rifle kicks and makes it inaccurate at long firing, machinegun stays steady and accurate. You childs can read all you want USCM field manual at net site and try cry how it tracks target, I say go to army and shut up. It didn't track a shit in movie. End of story.
- Aliens fear fire, every living being fear getting burn alive.
- Shotgun isn't implemented here cause we are soldiers, not farmers, even that one frankie carry it along. Colonnial Marines use flamethrowers for close combat.
- Pulse rifle grenades fly straight. They are miniature rockets with own propulsions.
- Players close enough to player using motion tracker set, gets motion traker screen for them. This is only way to make it helpful and efficient for teamplay.


Aliens have only two different classes which are one, molting forward - drone stage 1 (Alien movie) and drone stage 2 (Aliens movie). Any other name to scribe these is stupid and gay. We humans don't have knowledge what a hell names they got if they ever got any names so we call them by scientific impressions. If coding progressing-molt is difficult then use two classes.

For alien to use arms to attack, it either stand or leap against target. Alien crawling on floor or ceiling ain't tearing anything. Alien also move on stand as normal movement, it crawls only when climbing walls. There is notably difference in speed is the alien at crawl or stand so it cannot be used as all around default movement. Aliens also "jumps" only when it makes "leap", there is no more ridiculous normal jumping as every motherfucking gay game has. Marines don't jump.

Bites are back how they were at AvP. First way was the best way.

Acid is acid. No survivors.

Tail have no autoaim. It impales and kills, but can miss.

No one falls anymore. If there is damage enough to make you fly, you are dead or unconsciousness already.
Alien colliding marine simply drops before marine. Not best solution but there is no other solution unless new engine is created.

---

Something like that. What I write before, forget it, they never happend or are possible.
I play R2 until I see game like that, but most likely I move to other games before this happends.
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Revenant -Mar Sara-
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PostSubject: Re: I have an idea...how about completely new begin?   08.02.13 10:59

jegu perkele nyt on keijolla suunnitelma joka toimii. Tuut saatana takas sieltä saunasta kittaamasta sitä pirtua ja tehää sun vippimodista pienempi variaatio yllä mainituilla asenteilla, mul on perkele nyt semmonen valaistus et sanon sen toimivan, mut sun pitää tehä täsmällee mitä sanon.

Jos tulee pari ongelmaa muutaman asian suhteen ni AJL saa tulla jeesaa, saatana. Ei oo kyse ku pikkuasioista et siit tulee mitä mulla on mielessä.
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AJL
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PostSubject: Re: I have an idea...how about completely new begin?   08.02.13 19:09

All new game for all new fan made engine ?

ehm.. I don't think so... Laughing

All new game for one of those free engines ?

I have thought about it, and tried to start a few times, but its a whole different deal than modding an existing avp game... as while modding existing game you at least have something to test and play where you can see the results of your work as you go but trying to make a whole new avp game virtually from scratch, thats just months and months and months of tiresome work before you get to see anykind of results and years and years and years before you got anything playeble and I can't maintain any motivation like that and given there haven't been many or any such projects progressing beyond the mere idea phase, I am guessing nobody else can either...

New avp mod for new avp game ?

If we got the tools and code and shit then sure but AvP 2010 came and went but no tools and code and shit ever came... not sure whos decision it was not give any mod support, rebellion or sega but I am guessing it was sega, and I am also guessing there will be no tools and code and shit for this Colonial Marines game either as the publisher is sega again...
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PostSubject: Re: I have an idea...how about completely new begin?   08.02.13 20:58

Revenant -Mar Sara- wrote:

Before I tell overal look what I have in mind, I tell that I'm looking first AvP game. It's atmosphere and how things were done in it, from lights to damages. If...IF it's possible to mod and you know how to mod it, then we could forget the new engine.
Perhaps, it is the most atmospheric and scary game in which I have ever played.
In any game there is no such pressure as in this. Devilishly oppressive atmosphere.
I still didn't pass this game by the marine because I feel fear. And I am 23 years old. That's funny. Laughing
And one more big plus of atmosphere consists in absence accompanying soundtrack. I remember that from each rustle the mouse flied from my table. Twisted Evil
In this plan game was successful on everything 100%.
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Le Celticant
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PostSubject: Re: I have an idea...how about completely new begin?   09.02.13 0:05

Well I'm still up for everything that could help.
I'm doing 3D now and I can do everything almost you could ask me on models (not setup and rigging/skinning though) perfectly well done from high polygons amount to low with UW map done and even textures.
I guess I'm quite able to do maps on every engine available to us so I can take the mapping all alone without problem at all.
I can also help a lot for FX of a game (explosions, etc.) since I'm very good with compositing tools.

If enough people are interested, I'm still up to bring something to life.
But we need to be quite a large amount of people working on different things.
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Revenant -Mar Sara-
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PostSubject: Re: I have an idea...how about completely new begin?   09.02.13 1:15

What if people here get together. Basically it's 1 model of marines, 1 model of aliens with 2 different skin, 5 weapon model and 1 tool model, some sounds + few visions and rest is statistics. For start 1 map made to this game is enough. With this we have solid layout that works. It's easy then expand with new maps.

I can't be much wrong if I say there is at least 5 person who have skills and knowledge code something, most likely more.

---

It is scary game. I myself too can feel fear in it when I mood myself for right attitude (not trying to abuse or speedrun game through). It was weird to realize how playing R2 has actually changed my playings. Some 10 years ago I could not kill first alien on first marine level without wasting 3-4 clips and getting to level 2 feel damn hard. Then I test again and god damn! I actually hit that alien like it should be and only last level before queen give me troubles.

Still, playing it with right mood makes me scare. I love it Cool

And when I tested ages old Cancer Black mod at marines, I see how the aliens have to be. When alien is huge like it is before man, you actually feel the dread of monster which you cannot kill. After that I haven't never accepted anything less as "right" how the aliens should be. Sad that this mod never finished to any really playable form.



-edited later-

Some corrections; ofcourse there is more things to code (I just forget them briefly), still handful of people could make it. After the basic is completed it's easier to add more. That way it would not stress people too much.
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PostSubject: Re: I have an idea...how about completely new begin?   09.02.13 3:19


Looks good.
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Le Celticant
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PostSubject: Re: I have an idea...how about completely new begin?   09.02.13 5:05

@Revenant -Mar Sara-
It doesn't seems much said this way but:
-You need a couple of weeks to get at least a character model to be ready for the next phase.
-You probably need a day to do the UV (gotta do re-topology)
-You'll need several days to play with the different maps to composite well your skin (Diffuse, Specular, Normal maps)
-You'll need a couple of weeks to set up the rigging and the skinning of the model.

After that you send it to the coder and tell him what kind of animations he needs to be worked on with the code.

1 second of animation equal to one full day of work (at least 10 hours).
Animation are between 1 and 5 seconds for MP (usually an average of 2 - 3 making loops).
In AVP2, you had around 300 animations per character (so it is at least a year of work to get animations work for ONE character only considering you'll spend 300 days on 356 working 10 hours each day if you're alone. Of course being several reduce the amount of time but still, that's freakin' huge!!!!).

It's not hard, it just needs a painful amount of time since you'll be a small group of people trying to do the work a whole company who employs for daily job at least 200 people working 8 hours a day on a game.
It is not hard, it's long and by the time we finish the game, you can be damn sure that the engine will be out-dated looking crap and may not even be stable with the latest version of Windows.
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jegu
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PostSubject: Re: I have an idea...how about completely new begin?   09.02.13 16:37

mitä vittua? :D ei oo miul aikaa käyä modailee täl hetkel, duuni pukkaa päälle opiskelun kaa aivan liian rajusti.

AvP2 "recreation" has been tried many times before or that's what I remember. It would need a shitload of time, experienced game makers (not me, someone who has more than decent amount of experience in coding such as AJL) and committed workers. In VIP mod I had MANY ideas, but I noticed the main problem was other people who worked on the mod. I didn't get the needed animations for the models, which pretty much stopped the big advance in the mod making. If one thing isn't done properly or at all, the creation process cannot move onwards.

As in overall, Rev, get yourself these people and you will succeed:
- "Architecht" who knows how to make things look pretty and right, for example right type of weapons for humans, outlook of predator, etc.
- Experienced coder who makes things work at proper and correct way, who needs also to be trustworthy and free hands to create things the easiest way to him.
- Model maker/animator, who isn't afraid to do MUCH work...
- Artist, who makes the skins and textures and approves them to you Rev and the architecht, who also isn't afraid to work too much
- Mapper, creates the needed maps with architecht and artist. These people make the gameplay and atmosphere to needed stage.
- Some respected gamers, who tests the mod time to time and gives proper feedback without crying or shouting. Meaning not bunch of idiots. Use experienced modders and people who have ideas how to make things work more simple.
- Yourself to do all the little details in gameplay, textures, skins, models and maps. It's the biggest responsibility in my mind.
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Le Celticant
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PostSubject: Re: I have an idea...how about completely new begin?   09.02.13 22:00

Maybe what can possibly be done is go on a very very very very very very [...] very small thing.
Extract the ALIEN, PREDATOR and MARINE from AVP2.
Rig/skin them.

I can make some animation since I'm in VFX school and I learnt it but it'll need time and it is a pain to do it Alone.


It won't looks too good on the polygon side but with proper shader and Lightning we can give some decent look.
I think graphics and environment relay more on the lights rather than the texture and polygon amount.
Honestly I don't give a **** about AVP2 models, to me they seems about fine.
Maybe one or two modifications are needed but that's about it.
What AVP2 lacks is dynamic light and shading system to put Normal and Diffuse maps and works with a correct lightning.

If anyone is up for the adventure and we put our ambitious low, very low like 1 character only for each specie and focus on the minimum:
Predator (Wristblades, Spear, Disc, Shoulder Canon, Medikit & cloak)
Marine (Pulse Rifle, pistol, flamethrower and shotgun)
Alien (Wallwalk, Claw, Tail & Jaw)

We might start to get something but as always it needs time and involvement from all of us.
Anyway if you want to, I propose myself once again as an Animator, Model-maker and Mapper. (Though as modeler I'm better at doing props and things to put into maps environment than designing character, this is why I asked to take AVP2 models) and I have no idea how to rig and do the skinning of an object to make it works then for animation with right bones and attachment to the polygons.

It's not impossible if we aim low, but it'll need a lot of time still.
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Revenant -Mar Sara-
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PostSubject: Re: I have an idea...how about completely new begin?   09.02.13 23:07

(This is gona be long post - consisting three separate sections. I have to say cause I start this...again)

Tacto, Win98 ain't supporting todays flash drivers so I can't look what that thing is (video perhaps). I still would like to see what it is Rolling Eyes

- 1 -

Le Celticant is right, the work is too much (jegu too, and AJL and all others too).

I try imagine this in my head how much this realistically would take time for one person (me). I use few games as example to figure out difference (for myself).
Ok, I'm making game "Impossible Mission", from 80's when Commodore 64 was main thing (this is real game already made back there).
It's 2D platform arcade having singleplay only, it has 2 different models (agent and robot) + animation of electricity attack, few sound effects and some computer screens. Rest is mainly background drawings and statistics.
Agent most likely have few dozen animation - 5-7 for jumping, 2-3 for turn and 3-4 for running. Robot has 3-4 for turning and electricity got few too (2-4).
So this doesn't sound much, one person can actually do all that on few months. But before he can do that, he have to use maybe at least a year to learn coding, so we could keep this as few years work, and we get only 2D singleplay game, not even near 3D multiplay.

But this could be where one person can reach, that it still sounds reasonable and possible without game maker losing his intrest.


Next I try make 3D multiplay. I start making 1 model. Like Le Celticant says, one model takes hundreds of animations and time required to learn again how to do all that, is at least doubled, maybe tripled.
So I could say work required is multiplied by hundred, most likely more. The number I get last night thinking about this I could say it would take me 6 maybe 7 years to do what I plan and then I would reach only start which includes working basics where to expand for all that I have in my mind. And this requires me to concentrate majority of my time for this (no playing anymore, some other takes the throne of KING Sad ).

So...this is way too much even for me. Even that I have play R2 and thinking about all this stuff nearly decade, still I didn't take it as work. I take it as intresting and do it just how much I like, but if I feel like I don't want do it now there wasn't nothing that force me to do it. That makes lot of difference, do it for own entertainment or forceful work.


So...I guess I too was an idiot who want, expect and believe it would be easy. Just take the motivation and do it.

- 2 -

This second section is for my new vision about VIP mod (which I get when speaking Finnish language Laughing ). Ok, ok, new engine is too much, let's get back to old one. But let's make it smaller so that it would not require too much again.
VIP mod have best models I guess, especially those alien and marine models (or skins for right expressions). Let's take only drone model for aliens and one marine model which looks most neutral to be marine without clear differences on personality (black dude, orange hair, female...).

Make it with deadly attitude like alien getting on fire ain't gona survive, it actually is forced to walk and stand mode and starts to scream hellishly and swinging it's arms and tails (just like it feels horrible pain). BETA blinding flames and so on...
- Put heavy fog on NV (simply can't see or differ anything beyond certain point).
- Pulse rifle/machinegun hitting chest or head kills instantly, only if hit is on limb alien can survive but limb is torn away.

Pistol requires clear hits to chest or head to have any real effect and pistol is lot more accurate but it's pistol that don't have enough power to kill alien from one bullet (3 to head 5 to chest, merely armor piercing bullet not armor-piercing high-explosive).
Hits to limbs by pistol won't kill alien and limb is torn apart only after some 10 bullet hit.

Hits to limbs cannot kill alien but they will be ripped off (there alien shows it's resilient to damage, if damage ain't at critical location like internal organs it will not be enough for alien to die).

Biting isn't any health pack or nothing, it's weapon of terror and for totally killing others. Alien have fast regeneration but no one in this universe heal itself by magic tricks. That's why first way was the best way. If there is something utterly pathetic it's alien biting ass and target still lives. Biting has to be done right at cranium or it will break original purpose.

So...idea goes like that (with rest of ideas)


Then we need one map to start, map that supports only this mod. Map which is designed by that marines ain't jumping and it looks like Aliens movie, it has darkness and hides where alien can hide before marine (only light can reveal it).
Alien getting close enough to marine leaves no change of survival for marine and marine getting alien at aim leaves only minimal change of survival for alien.
Aliens have numbers and can play that in mind, for marines it's game over man game over. If possible then somekind Counter Strike styled round where marine players have 1 live and aliens got 3, example. You dead, you wait till next round. But TDM goes too if this sounds too slow.

No player have any kind aiming reticules at his/her screen. It's lot harder to hit targets afar when you can't be sure is my aim right or not, this gives great feeling when you mood yourself for that.
And again for alien it's not even disadvantage as at close combat hitting is lot easier.

- 3 -

Then lastly is the idea I have created for over years here. As todays games are massive in every way then if I ever want or achieve what I like, I have to get the to past. When computer gaming was at begin, things were smaller, graphs were VGA based and models were 2D sprites, like Doom and Duke3D were.
If model example is lot simpler 2D then it all turns lot easier. 99% of players today most likely don't even consider playing games like these but that still ain't terminating the fact that even book can feel right just how it is - 2 colors, white and black, 1 texture, paper page.
So in the end and at the begin is the idea, the vision that determines does the game feel good. Graph can look good even that it has 256 colors if the artist have vision what looks good and feels right.
The game can look outside old and simple but if the core holds more possibilities than todays games together, then I say the game is good.

This also negates todays main problem - lag problems. Power of computers today could run game like that with hundreds of players without a single lag, maps could be so insane huge that we actually could make APC example which brings just what it does in real army - way to travel distances that by moving on foot could not be possible.
Map that really is 50km wide (just feel the feeling of sitting at dropship and waiting that one player who is pilot takes you and team to destination....Jeesus Christ I'm gona crap my pants Laughing )

So if we use 640 * 480 resolution, VGA graphics, 2D models on 3D world and we know what we are looking for, we could make game that runs on strategical warfare level altering things dynamically by what players do at game. Game give changes for solo commandos operating just for themselfs and commanders who wish to construct fully working bases with AI controlled personels and other players who like to take role of sentry guards protecting base from infiltrating aliens.
And if you get pissed playing with other players, play alone, game goes on and do things by itself, you are just one piece on big picture.
If you again like to alien for change...think about that - you infiltrate base, base holds AI scientists, technics, guards and other workers. You can actually stay there undetected and pick right time to attack lone prey, lay hive on some dark place like not used cargo holds.
No one on marine side cannot realize you have infiltrated them if you keep undetected enough. Then if you manage cause disturbation enough (scientists get missing and research ain't progressing), command of marines gives mission to players playing marines - POSSIBLE ALIEN INFILTRATION, SEARCH & DESTROY AREA FOR POSSIBLE XENOMORPHS.
Then patrols start to flow in checking and you have huge complex where to hide (or already infested compound where dozens/hundreds of aliens slumber and "search & destroy" mission turns to "exterminate" mission).
This is story telling game at it's best - players write the story as they play.

And all this is still one piece on big picture. War goes on around all of you.



Something like that is my dream. Maybe it's just a dream...can't say, but what the life is without dreams Rolling Eyes
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Revenant -Mar Sara-
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PostSubject: Re: I have an idea...how about completely new begin?   09.02.13 23:26

That sounds right direction Le Celticant (funny we write sametime, you finished hour earlier Laughing )
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PostSubject: Re: I have an idea...how about completely new begin?   11.02.13 20:09

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Le Celticant
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PostSubject: Re: I have an idea...how about completely new begin?   12.02.13 2:02

Watched this already and it looks quite awesome to be sincere.
It's funny because I always suggested to go Cryengine way over UDK because I think everything is much easier to implant.
And it has now reach a huge database of modder with a lot of tutorials so it's very good for documentation.

But that needs a lot of time of work.

Next year at VFX school I'll learn how to do Rigging and skinning.
So if anyone is up for coding, it may be possible since I know how to model, rig/skin & animate which are the three basics things required for a model.
I can also do maps.
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